Podcast Review: Jocko Podcast Episode 267 – Are You Competing In The Right Things

This is the first of a series of reviews of podcasts that I think have application in the realm of occupational health and safety.  I know that many who work in occupational health and safety are fans of podcasts – as am I – and these reviews will help identify podcast episodes that might not be on everybody’s radar.

Some background about the podcast:

I’ve tweeted and talked with people about the application of some of Jocko Willink’s podcasts in the realm of occupational health and safety in the past.  Jocko’s podcast focuses on issues related to leadership and “extreme ownership” whether it is in the business world, the military, or life in general.  As his podcasts are on the longer side, I tend to be a little choosier in which episodes that I listen to or more importantly when/where I listen to them.  They can not be knocked out in a typical drive to or from work – they normally take a couple of drives or runs or walks.  Even tougher is that his podcasts are one of the podcasts where I typically think – I wish I wasn’t driving so I could write this note down for myself.

Episode Background:

Episode 267 is a discussion between Jocko and Dave Berke, one of Jocko’s colleagues who is a former Top Gun officer and Marine Corps fighter pilot, about the United States Marine Corps MCDP 1-4 document which encompasses the USMC doctrine on Competing.  While the document covers what one would expect from a combat service in terms of “competing” in different environments, Jocko and Dave help to apply it to corporate goals for businesses as well as when working in teams in a business. 

“We’re competing all the time.  But don’t waste your time competing in short term contests that don’t lead you towards your strategic goal.”

Highlights And Applications to Occupational Health and Safety:

Shortly into the podcast, Jocko discusses one of the more important issues of “competing” – who are you competing with and why, illustrating it with a story about the tactical victory of beating his youngest daughter in Monopoly but losing the strategic victory because she no longer wants to play Monopoly with him.  We have to be careful about the tactical and strategic victories in occupational health and safety.  Sometimes those tactical wins can cause us to lose from a strategic standpoint.

“Pay attention to what you’re competing in, make sure it’s taking you in the right direction.”

“We’re competing all the time.  But don’t waste your time competing in short term contests that don’t lead you towards your strategic goal.”

This concept is so important when it comes to the world of occupational health and safety.  We need to make sure that we are going in the right direction – not just going for a specific number or metric but competing to actually change the culture towards a safer culture that takes responsibility for themselves and their peers through their actions. 

One of the important topics that they talk about in regards to “competition” is being able to see from the other person’s viewpoint – whether it is a competitor, an employee, a family member, etc.  This is so important with implementing safety programs.  Dave Berke provides a unique example that can definitely apply as we try to implement new programs – he explains that when he was an adversary pilot at Top Gun, his job was to both see the world through the lens of Russian pilots and then teach the young Top Gun pilots how to go on the offensive maneuvers against him while he had to both fly defensively and also visualize the viewpoint of the student pilot – in other words, see both points of view.    In occupational health and safety, we need to see not only our viewpoint, but the viewpoints of the employees, the management, and any other stakeholders to better understand how viewpoints may affect implementation.

Another important point that Jocko makes during the discussion is that of “connecting the dots” when someone may not know all of the details. People have a tendency to use their imagination to connect the dots in absence of solid information.  As much as possible, we need to make the information of how or why we are implementing a plan available to curtail the rumors and guesses at the how/why.  I know that when I go out to a site to measure for job descriptions that if it hasn’t been adequately explained, employees will have their own stories and reasons for why I am there.  And almost always, those reasons are never close to the real reason.

There is a quick discussion on the importance of word choice and tone in how an employee reacts.  We may say something to give that employee additional responsibility which is often a good thing and representative of our trust but if it isn’t conveyed adequately, that employee may feel that we have dumped something on them. Tim Page-Bottorff’s “Storytelling in Safety” podcast has a lot of great discussions that cover communication that we will visit in the future.

There is a reminder that culture changes take time but culture of an organization is really important.  It affects how each member of an organization chooses to do things.  (Quick operational definition of culture that was used – culture is a system of beliefs, values, and behavioral norms that operate in the background below the level of conscious awareness.) 

Interestingly, the discussion of culture brought Jocko and Dave around to discussing safety (the application I had been thinking from the beginning of the podcast) – how culture affects cutting corners, PPE use, saying something or not say something when you see risky behavior.  Also, how solid culture helps to have all employees take responsibility in what goes on – it doesn’t mitigate all risk, but gets us on the path to reducing those risks.

Conclusion:

This episode is worth the time to listen to and get more information on identifying when, where, and how we should be competing.   As noted above, there is a lot of crossover to the area of occupational health and safety – where the “competition” that we are involved in helps to aid in not only job performance but more importantly helping to make sure that employees go home safely at the end of their shift.